Episode 004: Holly Mackle

My friend Holly is a Mama of two girls, wife and author of a book called “Same Here, Sisterfriend”. She is so fun and so full of wit and wisdom. Don’t miss the part where she talks about hiding the pantry from her kids!

Episode Transcript:

Jenn: Hi, and welcome to the Mama Needs Podcast. My name is Jen and I am so happy that you're with me today. This podcast is just for you Mama because you matter. Each week I'll be talking with another mama, as most conversations with women go we'll cover a multitude of topics but mainly we'll share stories of motherhood, all the ups and downs, lessons learned and how these mamas practice self-care. Each episode is intentionally thirty to forty-five minutes at the most because ain't nobody got time to listen to long podcasts. So take a seat, fold your laundry, drink your coffee, do your dishes, I know you're multitasking and listen in. This podcast is sponsored by the Mama Needs subscription box. It's a monthly subscription box to remind you to take time for what you need a little bit of self-care. I'll be curating each box that includes four to six items. Gifts for you, self-care tools and ideas each month for how to practice self-care. Even better, the box is themed each month and a surprise. Go check it out at mamaneedsbox.com.

Hello and welcome to the fourth episode of the Mama Needs Podcast. In this episode, I have interviewed Holly Mackle. She is a friend, a new friend that I've only known in recent years. She is the author of Same Here, Sister friend and Little Hearts, Prepare Him Room. She is hilarious and I know that you're going to love this episode. She talks briefly about her infertility story here and also how she hides in the pantry from her kids. So I know you're going to love listening to our conversation. She's just filled with lots of humor and wit and lots of wisdom as well. She really, really encouraged me in this podcast so I know that it will encourage you as well. So thanks for being here and I hope that you enjoy my conversation with my friend Holly. So, hey Holly, welcome to the mom and needs podcast. 

Holly: Hey Jen. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be with you.

Jenn: Thank you. So I just wanted to start out by asking you just a little bit about yourself, your family, where you guys live and all that good stuff.

Holly: Sure. We live in Birmingham Alabama and I'm married to David who is just the most supportive and wonderful and kind man you could ever possibly imagine. No no offense to your husband but he is very very supportive and we have two little girls Ellie who is eight and Georgia who's five. 


Jenn: Oh, Georgia I love that name. 

Holly: Oh, thanks. I like the grandma names, you know, I like the kickback names.

Jenn: Yeah, yeah. My daughter's name is Sadie so that's kind of a kickback. 

Holly: I love that. Yes. 

Jenn: So you guys live in Birmingham and how long have you lived there?

Holly: You know I'm a fellow Samford grad as you are Jen. So, I came up for college and then well, went to grad school in Georgia but really just never left and then met and fell in love with David and he's a residential realtor here in town and so we will likely never move. And I grew up as a tumbleweed and kind of lived everywhere all over the place. So it's nice to really have a city that we love and to have set down roots and Lord willing we'll be here for a long, long time.

Jenn: Yeah. That's so nice. And Birmingham is so pretty because you still get all the seasons but it's not so bitterly cold. 

Holly: Yes. Right.

Jenn: Yes I mean it was a shock to me but because I had no seasons.

Holly: Being a Florida girl, that's right.

Jenn: Yes. So we, just for the listeners, we have actually never met in person. 

Holly: That's right. 

Jenn: And we did go to the same college, Samford University which is in Birmingham. Go Bulldogs.

Holly: Go Bulldogs. 

Jenn: And you graduated in 02 and I graduated in 05. So we may have been there just for a little while together but I was first introduced to you on, we have a Facebook group for Stanford moms. It's called Samford Gals Mommy Talk. I [unintelligible 04:21] something like that. 


Holly: Something like that 

Jenn: And you posted in there that you had written a book and you were looking for launch team members. 

Holly: That's right.

Jenn: And I am an avid launch team follower.

 Holly: Oh, I love that

Jenn: I've been on a lot of launch teams. It's my favorite thing because I just love books and so and I've really loved nonfiction so when I saw that I jumped on it. You just said to e-mail you. So I went ahead and did that and then I was on the launch team which was a lot of fun. And I even got a couple of books that I gave away and that's just been really fun. So the launch team was for your awesome book called Same Here, Sisterfriend as you know. And it was curated by you. So just tell us a little bit about the book and what all went into making that happen.

Holly: You got it. First of all, can I tell you how encouraging it is that you like to be on a launch team like as a writer, that's a really big thing to have someone say, yes I'm excited about your book and I don't just want to read it myself but I want to tell the people that I care about, about that. So Jen thank you for doing that. 

Jenn: Oh, you're welcome. No problem.

Holly: It's a huge thing. Yeah, it's a big thing. Well as you mentioned, I really consider myself more of a curator than a writer. I love to write. It is my passion and I feel right now that it's my calling but even more than that I do feel like the Lord has equipped me uniquely to put people together on projects where we wind up with a collection of voices and stories that give glory to God's name and are hopefully encouraging and salty and bright to those who are either outside the church or maybe curious about the church or have very wrong assessments of what goes on inside the church body. So that's what Same Here, Sisterfriend is I hope that it is just the feeling of a really great dinner party where you're sitting around a table with a dozen of your funniest and most authentic friends and you're each going around the table just telling stories and heartaches and woes and your crying and your laugh-crying and by the end of the night everybody's got mascara just dripping down their face. So that was the goal of Same Here, Sisterfriend.

Jenn: Oh my goodness. You definitely nailed that on the head because that is exactly what I felt it was like. It was so nice to read this because I didn't feel rushed and I didn't feel like I had to read the whole thing in one sitting. You know, it's very 

Holly: We were going for approachable.

Jenn: Yeah, approachable wanted it's very approachable because you can just sit down and read a chapter and they're short and it's not heavy information. And so it's, I really did laugh and I really did cry and laugh-cry.

Holly: I'm so glad. 

Jenn: Honestly, it was so and it was so relatable. And it just gave, it just made me feel a lot of grace, it gave me a lot of grace. When I'm feeling doubtful about my abilities in motherhood or guilt about you know something that I did or something that I didn't do you know. And so I just loved reading your stories and your friends in this book who shared their amazing stories and they're so brave to just put these out there. I think that was wonderful.

Holly: Weren't they? I really, I really agree with that a whole lot. And I'm just encouraged that you liked it so much. Thank you, Jen.

Jenn: Oh yeah. No problem. Well let's get into these questions so why don't you tell us kind of your mama story and how, how you became a mama.

Holly: Sure. You know David and I had been married about five years and at the time I was teaching high school and we were just not getting pregnant. We were ready and excited and looking forward to starting our family and it just was not happening. And so, we wound up dipping our toe, just a little toe, into that pool of fertility treatment and now looking back on that and having walked alongside dear friends along that infertility road and the fertility treatment road I see looking back that we had nothing to speak of, nothing. But at the time it felt like such a big thing. And now all these years later looking back it's one of those life instances where I try to remember and reflect on it because that lesson I feel like still applies to me today on all sorts of days because in the moment whatever it is I'm facing with the girls or just with life circumstances. Those things can feel like a huge thing. Like this great big barrier, this huge insurmountable God could never possibly show up in this situation type barrier. But when I look back on our fertility journey it reminds me just to rest in God's plan and to rest in His timing. But God in his good and kind timing you know sometimes he will grant my request exactly as I've asked and sometimes he won't but he is so good and merciful and to be trusted and I want to rest in that. And I don't want to look to my current circumstances for my identity or for my standing before Christ. I want to, I want to rest in who he says I am in the scriptures.

Jenn: Oh, that is so beautiful. I love that. And I think all of us, you know everyone who's, who's listening and myself included have you know just similar stories of maybe having a baby was not in our time frame, you know either it didn't happen right on time or it happened and we weren't expecting it. 

Holly: Right.

Jenn: But gosh, God does have a perfect plan. And these babies come right on time in his, in his mind you know. 

Holly: Well said. 

Jenn: So, what is, when you were pregnant, maybe you were at your baby shower or just hanging out with, hanging out with your friends. What was some really good advice that you got from a fellow mama?

Holly: You know the best advice that I think I have ever gotten in regard to motherhood came long before David and I were even ready to start getting you know trying to get pregnant and the woman whose discipled me for years and years, her name is Martha Welch she's just a wonderful, deep, wise woman. Right after David and I got married I had her over to our brand new newlywed house for lunch and to hang out and she walked into my house and she looked over at my kitchen table which at the time was covered in wedding presents off of our registry like it was just covered over but we had been married you know a few weeks, maybe a couple of months at the time and she took a look at that and she saw it and she took her relational capital that she had with me and she spent it. She went all chips in on the table and she said, You've got to clean that off. I mean Jen, I still remember looking back at her and thinking oh my, this is like real bold even for Martha. 

Jenn: Yeah. It sounds like a very, very Southern lady thing to say.

Holly: It did, didn't it? It did. And then it hit me. She didn't mean exactly what she, didn't mean that at face value. And I'm so glad that she spent all that relational capital right there because what she really meant was, this is not about where you and I going to sit for lunch. This is about I am looking at the table in your house and realizing that you and your husband are not eating here and if you're not sitting at that table in order to eat a meal where are you sitting because as you looked around are very small, very tiny, little you know 1000 square foot newlywed house, we were eating dinner on the couch which meant that we were sitting side by side and probably turning the television on for that meal. And she was right and she put all chips in on that relational capital moment and said, hey this is a habit that you do not want to start. And I'm so grateful to her because still all these years later now that we are eating with our children we didn't have to look back and fight against a habit that was formed long before we even had our first child.

Jenn: Wow, that is amazing. And I love that phrase relational capital. I've never heard anyone say that before but that is amazing. That's really beautiful. And you know we do the same thing. I grew up, we all sat at the table all the time. Dinner time was very important. And so we've, we've brought that into our marriage too. And so it really is, it makes a difference. 

Holly: It does, doesn't it? 

Jenn: Yeah

Holly: And it's just fun. It's so fun. 

Jenn: It is. I mean sometimes it's not but.

Holly: That's fair. Let's go with overall generally speaking. When we were trending upward 

Jenn: Yeah. When the 2 and 3-year-old is throwing food or having a huge meltdown or then it's not so much but most of the, you know, that's exactly that's what we're working toward is, is to get to that point. What was maybe the worst advice that was given to you? 


Holly: Oh, yeah, easy. You know I still get it sometimes just randomly but I think that the most harmful and biggest rock of a burden that you can ask someone to carry in their mama backpack is when someone and generally speaking, I'm just making a huge sweeping generalization here. But generally speaking, it's an older woman often a stranger and they'll say enjoy every minute. I want to fight and rage against this with everything in my being. I just think it's not possible. I mean, my husband David is my favorite person in the whole wide world there was no one I would rather spend a day with or an hour with, but do I enjoy every second with him. Absolutely not. What? I think that that is a good thing to say to a woman. Enjoy every minute because just like you said about every single dinner. It's just not possible, is it?

Jenn: No. And that's so funny that you say that that's the worst advice you've been given because I interviewed my friend Sara on the podcast a few weeks ago and she said the exact same thing. 

Holly: Yes 

Jenn: And I totally agree. You know I think that older women say it you know they don't mean it. Obviously, I know that you know that you're not saying that they do but, I think that they're just lamenting the fact that their kids are grown 

Holly: Yes

Jenn: And maybe you know they just, they just want you to know that it's so fleeting and it flies by and so please enjoy every minute but you're like, No 

Holly:  I can't.

Jenn: As you're talking to me my toddler is screaming.

Holly: I hope that we will turn into those ladies who you know when we are white-haired and ,and you know ancient of days I hope that we will turn into the ladies who pass by a woman in the grocery store with a screaming toddler and either A offer to help 

Jenn: Yes

Holly: Or B just silently pray for her as we walk by instead of feeling like yeah

Jenn: Absolutely and just give that nod where you're like

Holly: Yes

Jenn: I see you, I know.

Holly: So you keep fighting the good fight, Mommy. You got this. 

Jenn: Yes. Oh man. Well along the same lines. What, what are some of the best or maybe just one best moment of motherhood that you've had so far?

Holly: Oh goodness. I, I don't know if I could choose one. This is such a great question but I mean it is just a, a question that's hard to answer because it makes my heart just swell

Jenn: I know

Holly: With the joy and the love and those inexpressible feelings that we have for them right. 

Jenn: Yes absolutely. 

Holly: I think our favorite times together and it's theirs as well and I've asked them like, what do you, what do you enjoy doing? We call it couch snuggle time and we have this big white down duvet blanket situation in our house and couch snuggle time is not complete without it and you should see my five-year-old like when we all pile on the couch if it's not there. She goes and just like scoots herself into my bed trying to find it and hauls it out over her head it's just so, one of my favorite things. We all just pile on and we'll talk or read a book or hang out and I feel like that's really our connecting you know our connecting time and we do try to have some of that after school. When, when it works out but we do shoot for that every Saturday morning. 

Jenn: That's really sweet.

Jen: All right Mamas. I just want to say a little bit about our sponsor which is the Mama Needs subscription box. This subscription box is a self-care box just for you mama because you matter. It is a monthly box that's filled with four to six items that promote self-care and you can get this box, your very first box for 15 percent off if you use the code - NEW15 that's N. E. W. 1. 5. So all you need to do is just go to mamaneedsbox.com. Click on subscribe choose which option you'd like monthly or three months and then when you go to checkout put in the code and you'll get your 15 percent off. I know that you're going to love each box. It's personally curated by me. And a lot of love and a lot of thought goes into it. So again that's mamaneedsbox.com. Okay back to our conversation .Okay, what has been your funniest mama story so far?

Holly: I don't know about the funniest but I will tell you about one of my favorites and it happened when my oldest daughter and I went to a quilting shop with my mother-in-law. And Ellie my daughter was probably about a year and a half and so we've got her in the stroller and I'm pushing her around this quilting shop. This rural Alabama quilting shop and so we're just going around and she sneezes. And this older woman heard her sneeze and came over and bent down over the stroller and just makes a fuss over her. She's like oh, you precious little thing. God bless you, are you getting a cold? You know and just Ellie's just grinning back at her just loving the attention. So you know we say our pleasantries to this woman and then kind of keep moving along. Well, I'm pushing the stroller down the aisle. And the next thing we do is come to another woman. And as soon as we go to her I hear Ellie go, Achoo! I thought oh, Lord and let me tell you that has been just the first instance of both of my children learning how to work an old lady well. 

Jenn: Oh my goodness.

Holly: My mother-in-law comes over and they will absolutely empty her of all her coin change. They just turn on their charm.

Jenn: Oh, that is so, so cute. She knew at 18 months to do that, that she would get the attention. I love it. 

Holy: You can work it right. 

Jenn: Oh, that's so cute. What do you think has been your biggest lesson that you've learned so far?

Holly: You know, when I think about this, I think about this writing life that I am living and wanting to live. And the biggest lesson that I've learned as far as that portion of my life goes that is spilled out onto all the other portions of my life is that when it comes to what you're wanting to do or hoping for, to just ask. And to ask from a place where your identity is not going to be shaken if the answer is No. And this writing life it comes with so much rejection like a ton of rejection it's at every turn. And at the drop of a hat I could choose to you know, put the pen down, put the keyboard down and just quit fighting and not ask the next person to take a look at the next piece or make an offering you know and out, out of a place that's not a fearful place, whatever it is. But if I want to keep writing which I do very badly and if I want to continue to have opportunity for Kingdom impact and encouragement and equipping of the Saints which, that's my heart right there, I want to do that so very badly then I have to, I have to choose to keep taking that next step in courage and resting and who Jesus says I am and not in what that rejection letter says and just not allow that to define me. But I have to allow Christ to be the one to define me. For Him to be the one to say who I am, for His word to define my identity and not to allow the next rejection letter to define me because they're just going to keep coming. If I keep writing they're just going to keep coming.

Jenn: So true. That's so true. And I I struggle with that the same so you've really encouraged me. It's hard to remember.

Holly: It's hard girl. 

Jenn: Yeah, it's, it's hard. It's hard to put yourself out there and be vulnerable. 

Holly: It sure is. 

Jenn: And you know, even in motherhood you're rejected and you feel guilty and you don't always do the right thing. You know you maybe you lose it on your kid and then you're feeling like a total failure and you just have to remember this. That's not who you are. And that doesn't define you as a mother and your child still loves you and you just ask for forgiveness and move on. 

Holly: That's right. That's right. We just have to give ourselves grace. I mean that's really that's really what it's all about. It's just continuing to to not be so hard on ourselves and get rid of that guilt and all that good stuff. Yes. 

Jenn: And I love that again that your book, your book really did that for me. It was really encouraging in that way.


Holly: So glad to hear that.

Jenn: So how do you cultivate friendship while also being a mom?

Holly: Yes. Great question. And I think the hardest thing for me about being a mom is I think I mentioned to you that I used to be a high school teacher?

Jenn: Yes

Holly: And so I left teaching high school to come and be a stay at home mom full time. And so I turned 180 degrees from having a 10th grader in my ear all day long talking to me. There was constantly someone like wanting attention or needing attention, crazy conversations, hilarious conversations all day long to being home with a newborn where it was completely silent. Except for the crying.

Jenn: Right.

Holly: It was just quiet. And I did not do well with, with that transition. And now thankfully there is this wonderful app called Voxer. 

Jenn: Yes. 

Holly: Yes. Are you familiar?

Jenn: I am.

Holly: You are? I love boxer so much and when I realized currently that I'm going through a day and it's been several hours in which I've had a million bajillion conversations with a little small person in my ear but not a one of those conversations has been either reasonable, seneschal or packed with any content beyond a first-grade reading level. I'm feeling the effects of brain decay.

Jenn: Yeah.

Holly: I will go into my secret hiding spot with just so which just so happens to be my pantry and there's a stool in there and I'll sit down on my stool and I will take myself a hot minute and I will listen to a Vox from a friend or Vox and S.O.S out myself. And it's just a way to stay connected to another grown up, another mom in the trenches so you know Jen pretty much it's like Jesus and Voxer. That's what I would say right. 


Jenn: I love it. Oh, that's such a good idea to do that just to get away for half a second

Holly: Yes

Jenn: And listen to an actual, you know, adult human being 

Holly: Yes

Jenn: Instead of Mickey Mouse or you know whoever is on the TV.

Holly: Right.

Jenn: That's so good. That's so good. How, how have you practiced self-care in kind of your different seasons? You know we, we see that we have different seasons of motherhood. We have, you know, the newborn season which I like to call the trenches. We have the toddler season, we have elementary school season which sounds like you're just about to really get deep into that with an eight-year-old and a five-year-old. So what are some of the ways that you practice self-care? And you just mentioned that you do take time to hide in your pantry and talk to your friends and that I consider that self-care. I mean you were

Holly: Absolutely.

Jenn: Yeah. You're filling yourself up so that you can you know even if it's just for 30 seconds you're filling yourself up so you can get back out there and, and be the best mom you can be.

Holly: That's right. That's right. 

Jenn: So what are some other ways that you practice self-care?

Holly: Yeah, I really appreciate by the way, what you're doing in this realm. I think it's a very important thing to encourage moms to remember to look to themselves because they can care for everybody else and absolutely forget what they're doing so thank you for the work that you're doing in this area. It's huge and it's important and it's encouraging and it's a reminder like even if I just see one of your Instagram posts, it's a reminder for me to take a second for myself. So, thank you for that. 

Jenn: So glad.

Holly: I love to practice self-care and doing the things that I love. So, I love to read, I love to listen to podcasts and both of those things. Making a choice during the day to choose one of those things when I could be doing something else. Picking up the most recent pile that has like randomly appeared in my house by the pile making little people. 

Jenn: Yes.

Holly: They come through and make the piles you know saying that that can wait for, for tomorrow and that before bed I'm going to go and read for a little bit or you know during the day while I'm folding this basket of laundry I am going to choose to listen to a podcast instead of just stirring over whatever is currently going on in my head so that that helps a lot. And this is just something that I try to remember to do so don't think I do it all the time. But as the girls are getting older I found that it has really helped. I think it also helps them to remember that our household does not revolve around them specifically. 

Jenn: Oh yes.

Holly: Yes, it's hard. It's hard when you're five and you think that you're the center of the universe. It's hard for me to remember I'm not the center of our universe 

Jenn: Right.

Holly: But when it comes to baking and cooking which I love to do both of those things I try to sometimes remember not to bake and cook with their specific preferences in mind. And it is so funny because just about every time that I choose to make something or bake a type of cookie that they don't really like or bake a cookie that has an allergen in it that my daughter cannot actually eat and you know I don't want to do this in a spirit of unkindness like what I'm about to tell you.

Jenn: Sure.

Holly: Please don't, you won't hear me say I'm like throwing this hey, you can't have this cookie I'm not doing that, but when I cook something that really is something that I love and one of my girls will look at me and say but Mom I don't like that and I'll respond again hopefully not in a spirit of unkindness but just in the spirit of that's right because there are more people in this house than you and I'll say I know and I have seen that sort of flicker a little light bulb in their head that reminds them, oh yeah, there's four of us here. There's four of us here and we're trying to edify and lift up and encourage others above ourselves so that we can edify and lift up the completed work that Jesus did on our behalf where he looked to others and not just to himself. It's all about, to me it's all about mirroring what we want to show our kids which is, remember who you serve. Who do you serve? Who do you serve? And if it's us. Well, you can serve yourself all right. But it's not going to get you to a place of contentment.

Jenn: Oh, I love that and I love how simple it is the ways that you mentioned you practice self-care. Just, just simple things where you're choosing in your day to take out little chunks of time while you're doing the dishes or folding laundry and actually in the intro of this podcast I say, okay Mama drink your coffee, do your dishes, fold your laundry I know you're multitasking.

Holly: Yes

Jenn: Because I do the same thing. We're all, we're all busy all day so yes I think just those little things really do add up and they really do help. I know my mom has told me multiple times, Jen the laundry can wait it's always going to be there. 

Holly: That's true, right?

Jenn: Yeah. And so that has been encouraging to me cause I mean what we're doing is thankless work and it never ends. But in the midst of all that we do need to take our time and take care of ourselves so. 

Holly: You're right. Absolutely. 

Jenn: All right. So just one more question and we'll wrap it up. And I so appreciate you taking this time with me. If you could give advice to a brand new mama what would it be?

Holly: What a great question and I so wish that I had more people in my ear about this when I had my own littles like right when they were first born. But I think I would say when you find yourself at the end of yourself which is going to happen like very quickly most likely just speak a reminder out loud if necessary that where you are that exact place of complete and total emptying of yourself. That was probably the end goal, to begin with. It was probably God's great purpose in your life to take you to that place that's the end of yourself. And from there you know I find that I often have a choice to make. I can wallow and seek self-pity or sadness or something like that or I can turn to Christ and cast myself upon him and ask him, out loud if necessary, to meet me there. And Christ does promise in his word to give us all wisdom we only have to ask if we are feeling ourselves lacking God promises to give us the wisdom that we ask for and I do love to ask. I love to ask for that wisdom or for him to meet me in that spot and then I really do love to wait expectantly and to see how he's going to answer. And it's not necessarily an instantaneous answer but sometimes it is and I think that's part of the fun too to wait and to see just how long and in what way he's going to meet and he's going to find me in that place of total emptying of myself.

Jenn: Oh, I love that. And right when you said that it made me think of a specific example if you don't mind me just sharing it really quick. 

Holly: I'd love to hear that.

Jenn: Thanks. Right before Christmas, we took our kids over to Asheville which isn't close. It's about an hour and 20 minutes away. And so we went over to Asheville because we wanted to go to, have you heard of the, oh gosh, what's the name of it now? That hotel that has the gingerbread house. 

Holly: Is it the Biltmore?

Jenn: No, it's not Biltmore. It's 

Holly: Grove parking?

Jenn: Yes. Yes.

Holly: Yes? Okay.

Jenn: So we wanted to take them to the Grove Park Inn to see the gingerbread house competition. My grandparents took me when I was younger and it was something that I really wanted to do. My husband was not super excited about it. 

Holly: Yeah 


Jenn: But my kids were and I was and I'm like we're doing this thing. And so we drove all the way there and there was a huge line of cars trying to get in. And little did we know that that was the busiest day they had had so far. 

Holly: Oh no. 

Jenn: And so we were actually turned away. 

Holly: Oh no. 

Jenn: We had, you know, Google had taken a certain way and there was a man standing there asking if we were staying there or if we were seeing the gingerbread house. And basically. he said it's a madhouse down there. We're pushing the fire code. So we're not allowing any more people in 

Holly: What?

Jenn: And he's like come back on a weekday and we've driven 

Holly: Oh no!

Jenn: So, everyone starts freaking out in the car and car rides are not fun anyway for our family. Our youngest, he has a speech issue and so car rides just are not great for him because he wants to tell us everything and wants it to happen right now. So they were all very disappointed. Well, I said you guys you know what, we still have some time. We're not going to turn around and go home. I said, let's pray right now that God would help us to get in and go to see the gingerbread houses and have the nice family time together that we were wanting. So we said just a little prayer and we went to a park and played for just, I don't know, 20 30 minutes and then we got back in the car and Google took us a different way. And I think it was just because there was a line and you know Google saw the traffic and said OK, I'm going to take you this other way. So we went the other way and we got right in, parked. I got out of the car with the kids I said kids, we're going in. I said, Joel go park the car and meet us in there and we got in and I said, oh that's my kids. Guys, did you see oh God answered our prayer? 

Holly: Yeah. 

Jenn: I mean it was so simple and, and you know to the outside world can seem so trivial and stupid that I even God to help us.

Holly: But it's not. It's not at all.

Jenn: And so it was just so encouraging. For me is even our, our middle son, he's seven and I said you know isn't that awesome? And he was like, yeah like it just hit him like yeah, oh my goodness. So, it was a cool moment but I just love how you shared that because you know you're praying expectantly asking for wisdom and God can answer right away. And then we can tell our kids, guys God answered our prayer and I just love it. 

Holly: He did.

Jenn: Yeah. I just love being able to share that with them even when it's something small like trying to find a parking spot. 

Holly: And I wonder how they'll reflect on and tell that same story because at least a couple of them are going to remember that.

Jenn: Right.

Holly: They're old enough to remember the gingerbread story and circumstance and you just wonder like how He's going to turn that into, you know, a seed of faith that grows in them where they go, OK. He really is real and they really don't care about me. 

Jenn: Yes absolutely. Well, Holly I so appreciate you being on here and sharing your mama stories and your wisdom with us. I just feel like you lay down some serious wisdom nuggets for us to take in. And I just appreciate your take on things. And you're funny, witty ways of, of motherhood. And, and again just thank you for this book that you curated, this beautiful book of stories that moms can ,can read and laugh and just feel zero guilt about reading because it actually is really helpful.

Holly: Oh,, I hope so. Jen thank you for having me. It was a delight.

Jenn: Wow didn't you just love her. I feel like I could talk to her for hours and I wish that we lived closer so that we could go and meet for coffee and I could just glean information from her. She is just awesome and I really enjoyed speaking to her. I hope that you enjoyed listening to her and just learning from her and hearing her stories of motherhood. And so I just wanted you to know that her book Same Here, Sisterfriend is on Amazon for purchase and also that it will be in a future box. I'm not 100 percent sure which box yet. But it will be in one so if you end up buying it and then getting it in a box I would really encourage you to pass on to a mama friend. I myself have given several of these to my mom friends and you know it would be a really fun gift to bring to a baby shower because it's so approachable. So anyway thank you, Holly, again for being on the show and I just wanted to let you all know that the next podcast that comes out will be with my bestie, my mama bestie. Her name is Carla Atlit. And I know that you're going to love our conversation together. We've known each other for a long time. I'm looking forward to interviewing her and sharing that with you. So, until then, you matter Mama.